Please Nic - get over yourself......

Your probably sick... The path to transformation is cruel...There is nothing you can do about it... Perhaps you should of brought that up when all the white people were getting all the glory of South Africa's economy. You reap what you sow...

Years and years? You make it sounds like yonks - it was just 10 years ago...

callous remarks my man when there are still mothers alive who lost sons to township riots and fighting a useless border war

Merit is still a consideration in AA appointments -- the law is pretty clear on that - when faced with two candidates of the same quality -- take the AA one.

It's not the best solution but in a country with a black MAJORITY -- it might have a very diferent outcome than in in the US - (where btw AA is still in practice) where AA is used to give minorities a foot in the door. AA also helps women, and minorites, including the disabled, make a mark...

In case you think I don't know what it feels like -- I've had pple tell me i can't apply for positions because I'm AA -- but that didn't stop me from continuing to job hunt, or see the benefits it has.

And many young professionals today have benefited from an apartheid schooling system....it's not a case of laying blame...just righting wrongs - or trying to with the tools available. How about an alternative?

If you knew your country Nic, you'd know that 90% of the Economy is in the hands of 14% of the population. If this situation is not remedied institutionally (through the Public and Corporate sector), I guess the frustrated masses who have not seen the fruits of democracy will have to revolt like Zimbabwe.

If the current government does not intervene with some sort of formal policies, white ppl will be kicked out of Mzansi and their businesses taken over -Zim style. (It's not my view, it's been proven over and over in Africa's history).

The current ANC government willl give way to a group of more millitant and vigillant young leaders - as is evident from the quality of leaders in the current ANC youth league - and they will use the land issue and job issue to win black votes - And convince the masses they will. It's been proven over and over in the rest of Africa.)

Oh, so AA is fine when it comes to the job market, eh? Cool, cool - I have no problem with that.

But how many of you will sanction higher broadcast quotas for local music? That is a form of AA that would benefit the entire country - regardles of ethnic background. And yet, a debate on this was held in this very forum, where all & sundry reasons were given for NOT implementing higher local quotas by many of the regs here!

If you're NOT one of the hypocrites, puit your name up on www.samqc.org.za - let's get some good ol' AA happening in SA!

I don't have a problem with affirmative action, its necessary and someone has to pay for an abhorrent regime. Every generation is faced with the challenges of their time. In my mother's era it was abolishing apartheid and women's rights. In mine its affirmative action, I accept that and I face it daily, it just means that I have to be better than anyone else and work harder. I know i'm where I am through my own efforts.

The problem I have is that affirmative action policies are not specific enough. The illiterate squatter camp dweller created by apartheid is not employed and skills enriched. Its those black people who enjoyed privilige their whole lives, private schools, rugby tours and diesel jeans who are empowered. My friend Mac went to a private school, played on rugby teams that toured australia and missed his matric dance because his initiation ceremony was the cool thing to do. He did an average BComm that took four years instead of 3 to finish and he is employed by a massive corporation earning a huge salary with incredible benefits while my township mates who carry knives to protect their families are still in gangs to survive. More research needs to accompany current affirmative action policies

55 years later we still hear about it, so why must we quickly 4get about the past. 70% of South African are black, we really have to streamline the injustices of the past

I'm an MBA student.. I grew up in the late end of the struggle but I've still got horrible memories and bitter tastes because of the cruelty of a people who are melanin challenged...

And I still get turned away from jobs in THIS industry because i'm not WHITE...

Remember, people get angry if their pain and hurt is NOT acknowledged...

No=one complained when our folks lost jobs to ill-equipped white people, and when we paid the saem taxes, whites got all the benefits...

Consider ourselves priviliged to live in this country today, the only country in the last century to undergo a complete civil and political revolution without a civil war in the streets...

And check the research.. latest reports show that of the number of new appointments in the past 2 years, most have gone to WHITE MALES!!!

While I'm all for making up for past wrongs AA in its present form isn't the way to go. Better education and measures against poverty should be the first step. The playing field would be levelled according to skills rather than inverse apartheid.

I am not saying you are, but MBAs are a dime a dozen these days. There are so many people out there who are useless and yet blame everything except there lack of ability as to why they cannot find a job.

Quotas always sound great when you are a benficiary and really bad when you are not. It's not the ideal system but can anyone think of another way to get this country going?

It's not about the past for me, it's about the future and surely this is more important.

The holocast irritates every single non-jew on the planet so maybe it's not such a great example of how to conduct oneself?

Whinging never got anyone anywhere except even more excluded than before. No one likes it - that's why we hate the Australians so much. Grow up and take it like a man. Start your own company, pull some strings and get with it.

it's funny how you white people think, how can you expect what took years of planning and execution to be rectified in ten years. for over 40 years white people have been oppressing blacks and as for the young proffesional is them who were calling our fathers boys and our mothers girl. they think exactly like their forefathers. go to classrooms you will see that even their kids think they are better than blacks. affirmative is here to stay. get over it, deal with or get out of our country.

Thank you for your truly educated comments, you have just highlighted the reason there is so much negativity toward affirmative action. Your attitude toward the issue is one of true arrogance and total closed mindedness, you are expecting something for nothing ! No one has ever been given something for nothing, im sure all young adults remember their fathers working all day and well in to the night just to make ends meet and to hold onto their jobs. never was is set in stone that "Because you are white you have job security".

I wonder how old you are and if you were really the product of an apartheid era ........ my guess is that you, like me and many others came after that era and thus why should they be made to pay for something that was not theirs to start with ...

My parents to suffered under Apartheid but they choose to teach me to get on with life, work for everything i have and never take anything for granted.

I wonder what your parents taught you ......

It's funny how when the argument turns to affirmative action it's only a black and white issue. For those of you that might have forgotten, there are coloureds and Indians in this country too.

One thing that really irks me is how us young people are so vociferous about the struggle when we didn't participate in it. Can anyone in this forum tell me that they went underground because they were wanted by the apartheid government? The youth cannot fully appreciate the true essence of the struggle. How can you?

And the people in this forum who have complained about AA (and I assume it's non-blacks) do have valid points. There are still a lot of people who discriminate on the basis of race. But it really goes both ways. South Africa has a long way to go for us to say that we have truly transformed. My mother always told me that two wrongs don't make a right. So, is it right to 'scold' whites because of what happened years ago? Why can't we all just scrap quotas and go on with our lives?

I have come across many people who consider South Africa as becoming apartheid in reverse. Is it true? I don't know. All I know is that I am sick when you have to be chosen on basis of race. And believe me, there are companies which do that. I was told at one point that I would have been a good candidate but unfortunately I'm not black. But I didn't moan. Just went on because not everyone is like that.

I would like to respond to the anonymous writer who stated that 'you white people' should either deal with Affirmative Action or 'get out of OUR country'. I was astonished at this immature malign comment - which brings me to the issue of what constitutes an 'African'. I am almost certain that since this writer does not consider white people to be South African ('our country'), then he sure as hell does not believe that whites are African either. I would love to know how this writer determines citizenship. For, if we were to go back in time, we would realise that the only indigenous population to the present South Africa was the Koi-San people. The large majority of American citizens are immigrants - does that imply that they are 'non-citizens' of their country? Should we discriminate in such a manner?

Is this not, in essence, a written confirmation of bias against whites? Is this any better than discrimination of black people? I wonder if he also considers coloureds and indians to be non-South Africans and non-Africans!

Are we merely breeding further animosity between the races, or are we actually achieving equality? In the end, does the means, i.e. Affirmative Action, justify the end (the basic human rights as stipulated in the Constitution)?

This writer's comments manifested a degree of arrogance and naivety, because not all white people - and again, one cannot put people into boxes and categorise them as such - were cruel or felt superior to black people, indians or coloureds. By placing people into categories, you are merely undermining your own argument.

It's so funny when white people refer to the past because the only past they know is the one written by their fore-fathers.The only reason white people say that the only inhabitants there were in SA were the Khoi-San is because those were the only people they saw when they came no one had been inland to see how may other indeginous tribes were in this country.And it is proven that there were other tribes when they started going inland. So how do they claim to know that there was no one in this land i do not know.

And going back to the past not longer than 10 years ago all white South Africans refered to themselves as European.It is very convinient now for them to say that they are African.

I'm not saying that white people do not have a right to this country but it really irks me when they are ignorant about the past. Its unfortunate that "Black" history is not documented but if you do know any black peeps pls ask them to educate you about history and its injustice.

About affirmitive action,it only takes one to go to recent research done and you will see that 16% positions of employment are held by black people the rest is held by whites. So tell me if you still feel that AA is an injustice.It is not like black individuals are not educated but because management is still white.

Where do you come off saying that black history hasn't been documented? My sister is in grade ten now and they are bombarded with black history. There has been a major transformation with the regards to school texts. So, your comment on the black history is completely untrue.

And as for the European part. Is it so wrong for white people to want to refer to themselves at Africans? I really don't see what the problem is with that. You are still holding grudges for what happened years ago. Move on. We are trying to mobilise our country's citizens but it will never happen if we have this mentality of blacks blaming all whites for their misfortunes of the past. You should realise as the years roll by that less people can relate to our historic past.

And once again... it's just a black and white issue. You aren't the only ones you know.

For the record, I would like to inform the previous writer that I did not once imply or state that "AA is an injustice". Furthermore, assumptions are extremely dangerous - when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me!

Moreover, white South Africans are European, by ancestry, and African, by birth. There are many people who cling on to their roots, but that does not mean that they themselves are European, Asian (look at SA's Chinese and Indian populations), etc.

It is interesting to me that the writer believes that "white people" are "ignorant" (again, a dangerous, generalised assumption) about the past. Aren't we all ignorant about the past? Is history not entirely subjective?

I agree with the sentiments of the person who favoured institutional reform through AA and other means over violent revolt, "as per Zimbabwe". Again, I did not once state that I was against AA or that I believe it to be an "injustice". In fact, what are the alternatives? This is the question I was posing - I was trying to stimulate diverse viewpoints from other readers.

Now help me understand this one. I hear white people being offended when it is said they are not Africans. Why? If they are Africans, what make them Africans? Their location? Now think for a moment:
Why are white citizens of America called Americans. But Black citizens of America are called Afro-Americans? Why is it that when an African is a citizen of China is not refered to as Chinese and the Chinese citizen in South Africa is not called African. A black citizen in India not called Indian?

SO WHY IS IT THAT BLACK/AFRICAN CITIZENS IN EUROPE ARE NOT CALLED EUROPEANS, BUT WHEN WHITES COME TO SOUTH AFRICA THEY WANT TO BE CALLED AFRICANS?

IS IT NOT TRUE THAT: "WE MAY ALL BE SOUTH AFRICANS BUT NOT ALL OF US MAY BE AFRICANS?"

whites living and born in africa are african this is not europe china or any other country this is africa and anyway
the true africans are the coloured people who are direct
decendents of the coy san black africans are no more african
than white africans

Coloureds are called that because they are a mixed breed.Black people are the direct Africans and the existing San people who are still living here.

Why is it that "whites" can not except that black people are S/African you are constantly arguing something that is just not arguable.

Just except it "Blacks were here long before" Jan van Riebiek.

How sad it is that all the racist comments seem to be coming from black individuals too scared to leave their real names. Personally I believe that affirmative action is wrong simply beacuse it chooses skin colour over talent and ability, the same reason Apartheid was wrong.

However I understand that it is an almost neccesary evil and is most definitely here to stay, although business is suffering as a result.

The bottom line is if you're black enjoy the sunshine while it lasts (cause it wont be forever) and if you're white then get clever. There are many ways to skin a cat and even more ways to become a BEE company without giving away money or power, maybe just a bit of glory.

The idea of AA is not only to balance out employment but to make people eventually look past colour. There seems to be too much ignored hatred in this country for that to happen for a long time.

Please people, you need to recognise that AA is necessary for today's business environment. For those of you who do not understand how it works, it is based on merit + your race and gender. Black people have suffered for a long time in this country and deserve to be considered for jobs based on merit and colour. It is here to stay and itr ain't going nowhere. Why it didn't work in America is a separate issue altogether.

As for whites who consider themselves African, It doesn't bother me that they do that, however the truth is that they are of European descent. They are not of African descent at all. If you read books by Marcus Garvey, and other African writers, they will break it down for you in terms of origins of African people.

Hey, I'm all for Affirmative Action. I understand that the sins of the father need to be payed. Unfortunately they're being paid by their sons but it needs to be done to balance this country out. Okay, that's all good...

...but lets be frank here, the whole AA/BEE thing is being taken advantage of by the top men in power (Sexwale, Ramaphosa etc.) They're the only ones who are really benefiting from all of this. Unemployment in this country still reeks and a fair share of the people filling up the AA positions are from other countries anyway. Now that it's wonderful to be black in SA now they move in from the rest of the African countries taking the work away from the South African black population anyway. And hey it looks good on paper hiring black folk so it doesn't really matter where they come from.

Another thing is that I've seen so much talent getting tossed away and then leaving the country just because they're white. Now I understand the balance needs to be corrected but we have people that can make a difference that are being forced to leave just because they're not black. Teachers, artists etc.

AA is great, if done correctly. But at the moment we're shooting ourselves in the foot and giving Tokyo enough money to buy himself another Maybach.

Yup, the heading sums it up.

I met a dutch student who is doing his masters thesis in Pretoria on the subject of AA ans BEE. His conclusion?

AA is racist and can't possibly work. It will plunge SA into a third world nightmare and leave it in a state much like the rest of africa.

Experience is needed to run any organisation effectively. Due to the obvious, experience is lacking in government AA candidates. Therefore: they cannot effectively perform the tasks for which they are paid.

Case closed.

When reading this it is shocking the amount of hatred from both sides of the color spectrum. The irony is that instead of relief of success in beating apartheid there is an amplified seek for justice. Because of this hatred many people that had no part in the racism of the past and had no choice but to follow the rest have to suffer this extreme longing for justice.

I know that the hatred is will continue being fueled by our generation and it will be programmed into the minds of the next generation, continuing the evil wave. BEE is a VERY good thing and I fully support this. It systematically fills the top structure of large companies in a clever way with people that had NO means to be in those positions 20 years ago. It also gently creates a scenario in which the employers become color blind and seek effective people.

AA however is part of the evil that will keep making race an issue. I am black, you are white, you are Zulu I am Xhosa. These are differences that should make us proud,...not make us label someone for injustice they had no part in playing.

Look,if the government would have stuck to the letter and spirit of the Codesa agreement our affirmative action could have worked to the satisfaction of all but our government shifted the goalposts and came-up with its own brand of a racialistic,discriminatory, sexist and ideological AA.

The agreement was that if a company had one white employee there was no need to replace him/her.If a company had two whites and the one white leaves then it must audition an Indian,coloured and aq black and the one who is most experienced get that position and I suggest you get more info from De Klerk and try to obtain a copy of the Codesa talks,conclusions and recommendatoos.

until the mothers who last saw their sons dragged out of their homes, until black people in townships get a piece of the good pie, until the remnants of bantu education dissappear, until those snobbish white people move out of sandton to experience the poverty that's in the townships, until white people start behaving like the "guests" they are in our continent, until black kids can just finish matric and know that they can walk into any tertiary institution they damn please,until there is no longer a rift between the haves(white folk) and the have nots, until our mothers stop slaving away in white peoples' mansions raising their kids, until our sisters stop selling their souls in street corners because they are unemployable because of the poor education system in township and rural schools, umtil my grandmother no longer has to travel miles to fetch a bucket of water from the river or stand in long queus just so she can get her grant from the government. black people went thru this for over three hundred years,14 years is nothing. If you're unhappy I suggest you go back home, where you can make your OWN rules!!!!

For as long as there was segregation in the past- we will NEVER feel as a single color otherwise we would be pretending.I've observed how pretentious white people can be..where ever you go they will just GRIN to a black person..why is that??(funy part they never do it 2 other white people)My point is we can't help it- it's there,the whites started it.However one may argue that we cannot dwell in the past,but what one can say-so we need to address such imbalances of the past.Bottom line is whites started it and should'nt expext black people to be fine with what they did in the past..To be honest the reason why whites seem to be a bit more successful than blacks..it's plain & simple-they have been enriched by APARTHEID.It's not necessarily the skin color/smartness or anything..apartheid favoured them in many ways than .However,something is still bothering me with the black nation-GREEDINESS/SELFISHNESS(CORRUPTION)..(they seem to overdo it)

Let me school you,AA exists because it was necessarry for the current government to correct the injustices of the past,during the apaardheim regime there was "job reservation" which meant white people got appointed soley based on their skin colour,whereas with AA you need not only be a previously disadvantaged candidate,you need to be qualified as well and AA also includes WHITE WOMEN!!!Futhermore despite the implementation of AA WHITE MEN continue to hold more senior position in the corporate world

So get over yourself!!!!!!