Finally, someone tells the truth about the media industry especially magazines. I have been applying in all the magazines mentioned by Lebo, but none has ever considered calling me for at least an interview. Whats wrong with these editors?

Perhaps neither of you make the grade in terms of what the Magazines are looking for?

And could somebody explain why Magazines have to hire black staff as opposed to hiring the best staff who may be black, white, coloured, etc..

Dear Cynic, you cannot seriously be questioning the need for transformation in the industry, can you? Apart from any moral imperative in respect of people who were previously denied access, do you not perhaps see the value in diversity - particulary in view of the fact that these publications are read by a very broad cross-section of the population? Or is it your considered opinion that, in the absence of significant numbers of black jounalists, they simply are not as good, and cannot be as good, as their white counterparts?

Nothing personal, you understand, but I am much amazed and a little aggrived by your attitude!

And do you think its just the case, every single time that their recruits are WHITE. You, like the editors seem to think that White is automatically better. I smell Eugine Terablanche.

Publishing more magazines for black/coloured/indian women.

and publishing magazines in black languages.

but maybe i'm a pie in the sky sort of girl.

I am an Indian South African. And I am so very glad that someone has spoken out concerning this issue. I was beginning to think this was a sick conspiracy by media professionals who met every friday over earl- grey tea and scones, to conjure up excuses for not hiring you black South Africans. I qualified cum-laude at Rhodes , I have an amazing Writing Portfolio but can't seem to get a break in this industry.

On one of the writing courses I did this year, a writer from one of the magazines at Caxton said how racist the working environment was to work in, and that she was thinking of leaving.
More than six people have left Caxton so far this year.

I do not think the answer is to create magazines by blacks/indians/coloureds for blacks/indians/coloureds. Being writers in this industry we all read a variety of magazines. You can't say, so and so is a "white" magazine so only whites should be reading and working on it.

Most people of colour in this industy have had some or other gripe about recruitment policies. What are we going to do about it?

Gosh, have any of you experienced the cold e-mail? When you pour your entire bag of literary flair into an e-mail to an editor and they JUST DON'T HAVE THE DECENCY TO EVEN REJECT YOU POLITELY.You wait and wait and they just dont reply. I think the further up you move on the masthead the less manners you have.

i gave up reading magazines - they don't speak to me. instead they keep trying to sell me stuff, and assume that if I'm middle class I aspire to western and "white" values and ways of doing things. i'm tired of that. i'm also tired of trying to get into the white club - so i'd rather start one of my own, and go where i'm not expected automatically to be the "black" expert or the "accepted coconut".

at some stage, once future generations have all been sent to model C schools, magazines might begin to reflect all SA's women's interests, but for the moment, i think we're probably pissing in the wind if we think general interest women's magazines are going to meet all our multicultural needs. i hate reading articles about muslim women written by unaware white writers who bring their baggage and assumptions to their work; and I'm sure Muslim women hate feeling so "fringe" as well.

there's probably a middle ground; but i'm don't think the big magazine publishers are keen to even start looking for it. it might mean that the magazines they produce might actually South Africa, instead of Cape Town.

Reflect SA instead of Cape town...

Dear Wiseowl and Tell it like it is.

Kindly read my comments properly without dribbling on your keyboards in righteous indignation. As a reader of most of the Media in SA, I don't particularly care what colour the author of an article is. I care that the article is informative, well written and interesting enough to encourage me to plonk down my hard-earned cash to buy the publication.

If it suits you lot to think that the reason you haven't landed the jobs in media you so obviously deserve is because of a "conspiracy" on the part of white media owners who don't believe in transformation and not because you may not have what the publications are looking for. That's your affair. However be aware that the media industry is rather hard to break into and that there's no room for lame ducks or incompetents no matter how worthy their pdi credentials may be.

The ability to be a good writer is not culture specific, it comes down to talent, and if you don't have it, you don't make it. End of Story.

You are missing the point. We are saying that the editors discriminate soley on appearences, BEFORE even giving writers of colour a chance to show their literary talent. If a journalist can't write, whether they may be black, white or orange, then yes, they shouldnt be hired, who wants to read badly written garbage.
But the point of this forum is to shed light on an ugly truth that is very prevalent in the magazine industry. Editors assume that if they hire someone called DUDU, she will automatically add "EISH" to every sentence. Or if they hire someone called FATIMA, she'll write "and all, and all". They don't take a chance to look beyond your name, because they have preconcieved ideas of what you are capable of as a person of colour.
I applied for a job at a Caxton, the editor of the magazine replied, "WHAT KIND OF A NAME IS MARIAM? Are you black or indian. Someone named LIZEL got the job.If she cared to open the attachment with my CV she would have seen that I studied at YALE, I did my intership at the Washington Post.And I have published more than 2 novels.

All you self-righteous young graduates need to catch a wake-up call - it's not easy to break into the media, it doesn't matter what colour you are. Editors don't have time to reply to every long email they get, since they receive HUNDREDS of emails a day - have you thought about contacting the relevant person, ie. HR?? Have you tried finding out what positions they have available, or what internship opportunities they have? Have you done any kind of research on how to pitch ideas? First figure out how the real world works, before complaining about it.

There seems to be an attitude that magazines have thousands of jobs just waiting to be filled, and that it's some kind of racist attack if you don't get a job. You obviously know ZERO about the media, otherwise you would know that journalist-jobs are as scarce as hens' teeth. No-one owes you a job because you have a degree, and it's probably that attitude that lost you the job in the first place.

Young black graduates also seem to think that they deserve a massive salary, otherwise they're not interested (the average starting salary for a journalist is R3000, by the way). Again, wake up: if you want to be a journalist, you have to be prepared to do anything, for any salary, until you prove yourself. You don't walk out of university and become a fashion editor at Vogue. If you're willing to work hard, perhaps do a free internship, you will always be successful. But expecting to get everything on a platter just because you have a degree and send such nice emails is lazy and pathetic.

I know for a fact that most of the big media companies have internship and bursary programs that are exclusively AA, and if you look at the job ads on this site, you will see that 90% of them are AA only, so stop moaning and start working. I've interviewed many young journalists, and the quality of their applications were so appaling, I binned half of it. So make sure your CV is short, relevant (no-one cares what you did in high school or that you were a waitress while studying) and - I cannot stress this enough - grammatically perfect. If your CV is longer than 2 pages, chances are it will be deleted because no-one has time to read that.

I also find it funny that no-one mentions how all the black magazines don't have any white editorial staff, but of course you all conveniently forget that.

true love's consulting ed is white; the subs'desk is coloured; the marketing manager white - real has white sub editors - same for drum.

and having been a subeditor on magazines- i think i can sefely say that writing talent comes a very far second to who someone knows in the magazine industry as opposed to their ability to write. White afrikaans writers writing in English get away with murder but black writers are "incompetent" because English is their second language

the assumptions made about black writers are ridiculous, and racist. i've been in media for years and have seen the level of incompetence tolerated of white writers and journalists, but the immediate "oh she's an AA candidate" sniggerings when black writers and media professionals make mistakes, and the freeze-out these people endure because they "don't fit the culture".

like women work harder in a man's world, blacks ahve to work twice as hard in magazines to get anywhere. and a writer's race is going to inform the content readers get; for now our race has made our backgrounds so different so it is definitely important when you read a magazine that often carries "human interest" stories.

More successful black magazines means advertising revenue and more black journalists and starting salaries go up; but a foo in the door makes a huge difference. when a recruite asks "what kind of name is mariam" i have huge issues, not the least of which is that general knowledge is clearly lacking at a level where it is very relevant to the quality of a product.

Magazines generally tend to look like their target markets. Black magazines don't have white writers, mostly because of the target market. Writers need to know the magazine's specific audience, and be able to pitch and write stories for them. I doubt a young black graduate could write a story aimed at a 40+ suburban white woman without substantial editing, same as a white journo wouldn't be able to pull off writing for Drum or True Love or Move without extensive research and experience.

The point is that if you do superb work, you will be successful. If you hand in shoddy work that hasn't been researched properly, never mind spell-checked, you will fail. It's a very simple formula.

one of true love's senior writers is a white woman.

and what does a 20 something white woman have in common with a 45+ white woman? whiteness? or the attitude of entitlement that comes with being white?

i can see substantial editing having to happen here as well.

the excuses are so thin i can see the blatant racism right through them.

and as for the shoddy work being handed in - seeing as i'm someone who cleans work up; all i can say is you're deluded if you think work comes in sparkling with wit and inspired writing from white journos any more than it does from black ones.

the assumption that a spellcheck and research is something black writers don't do... well...

My point is that people who share the same background can identify with each other easier than someone who comes from a different background. That is pretty obvious and doesn't really warrant a discussion.

It's ironic that you make comments about racism, when you are clearly a big racist yourself (your comment about entitlement proves that).

but that's not really the point is it? if you can give those of us on this forum questioning the whitewash at consumer magazines a reason that goes beyond the "entitlement" attitude blacks have or that they can't spell, we'd like to hear it. and i think the femina and cosmo and marie claire editors might take offense to their mags being labelled "white" magazines. at leas 40% of their readers are black, coloured or indian; so some staff diversity is in order, cos believe me - i can see the crap being pedalled at us because the staff has no clue of our lives.

Yes, because being racist is a horrible character trait that no-one should want to flaunt, but you don't seem to have a problem with it. How then, can you condemn white people for being racist? Don't you find that a bit ridiculous?

but please - do give us more enlightened views on the media industry and its penchant for white writers

You seem to ignore the argument that if you work hard, you'll succeed, no matter what your colour - look at Khanyi, a sterling example of talent and hard work, and look where she is today. But you'd rather play the race card because that's easier than taking any kind of responsiblity. Luckily most people - black and white - can see straight through it.

who says i've ever been turned down for a job? or that i'm even black african?

i just admitted i was racist. and i'm getting petty good at recognising it in others ... like with the ludicrous arguments and assumptions on this forum.

I never assumed that you were black, you said it yourself.

and huge difference when it comes to AA.

as long as you're in media, no other black women need apply.

I completely agree with you on everything you said and I also think that Cynic made alot of sense.
Meet the grade and you will get paid!
Just because you are black doesn't mean you should automatically get the job. Hundreds of people apply for job posts and the best get picked, no matter what you race.
This victim card that many black people seem to enjoy playing is getting extremelly old and needs to come to an end. That type of attitude will not get you anywhere in life.

TYPICAL OF A WHITE EDITOR TO JUST SKIM THROUGH WHILE READING. ESPECIALLY IF A BLACK PERSON IS WRITING. IF YOU TOOK THE TIME, AND GOD KNOWS HOW "BUSY" THESE WHITE EDITORS ARE ,WHAT WITH CURING AIDS AND HELPING RELIEF VICTIMS IN DARFUR-YOU WOULD NOTICE THAT IN LEBOS OPENING COMMENT SHE DOES POINT OUT THAT THE MEDIA INDUSTRY DOES NOT OWE HER ANYTHING..SHE IS MERELY POINTING OUT WHAT IS CONSIDERED HUSH HUSH IN THE MEDIA INDUSTRY.
LAST WEEKS FORUM WAS THE IMPETUS FOR HER COMMENT, AS MANY WHITE...YES ..WHITE ...WRITERS ON MAGAZINES STEPPED FORWARD TO THE REAL GOING ON AT MAGAZINES AND THEIR RECRUITMENT POLICIES.WHITE WRITERS ON GQ, 3 CAXTON PUBLICATIONS AND 2 ASSOCIATED MEDIA PUBLICATIONS ALL STEPPED FORWARD AND REVEALED WHAT REALLY GOES ON.IF ANY OF YOU HAVE THE TIME READ LAST WEEKS FORUM.

I applied to a magazine (a very popular SA mag) to do a free internship and guess what?? That was over four months ago and have not heard anything from them. Not even a rejection, nothing. What should I do now since you seem to think that we as black journalists, after being rejected several times, do not have enough grey matter to think of doing a free internship?

Did you ever think that maybe they already had an intern, and that's why they didn't contact you? And did you just apply to the one mag? Did you just send off an email to the editor, and sat back waiting for them to knock down your door? Or did you contact the HR department to find out what their formal procedures for internships are? (Because all you youngsters who think you know everything need to understand that the editor doesn't do every single thing on a mag; most editors aren't even involved in choosing interns).

Waiting for people to give you what you think you deserve is a recipe for failure. Getting out there and doing everything it takes, is the recipe for success.

Coulnd't agree more with your views Lebo! There's more to be done in the media front with several print as well as broadasting households in South Africa! If one's African Black and not from the model C learning background or raised from abroad especially in US, and cant' twang enough, one's chances of being employed by broadcasters are nil, even with one's media qualifications. Then with the Magazines it is catastrophe! Something's gotta be done in those media houses!

But I've yet to land a permanent job in the magazine industry. I've more than proven myself, I'm passionate and I have experience. Tell me, what am I doing wrong?

You're not doing anything wrong, you just have to remember that there aren't that many permanent writing jobs available. Most magazines have 2 or 3 max permanent writers, and they tend to stick to their jobs!
Tell all the editors you work with that you'd be interested in a permeanent position, and they must please keep you in mind if a position comes up. They would much rather appoint someone whose work they know, than take a gamble on a stranger.
Good luck!

Gosh, I thought I there was no hope for me. Thankjs hun!

To all of the previous posters who complained about not being hired - every one of your posts contained grammatical, spelling, and/or punctuation errors.

You are competing with the best of the best to get a writing job. Other issues aside, you will not succeed if you present yourself so badly. I used to work with an editor who would automatically bin any CV of an applicant applying for a writing or copy-editing position the minute he saw a mistake in the CV. The person's history, race, gender, schooling, age, experience, etc, was totally irrelevant.

I have personally put out calls on a number of occasions for junior/entry-level writers. You receive a barrage of replies, and the overall quality is shocking. (While a Times magazine level of reporting is not expected, the ability to adhere to the basics is. If you can't spell (problematic in itself), use a dictionary and a spell checker. Ascertain what your weaknesses are and learn to overcome them.)

So, as an employer receiving these applications, you toss the majority (although I, personally, do reply to every person to acknowledge receipt and to say that they will be contacted if the magazine wishes to take it further). You are forced to look for the gem in the pile (which is sometimes quite difficult), while lamenting the terrible quality of the applicants, and wondering why the universities and colleges are graduating such unqualified, unskilled, untalented people.

To those of you looking for jobs - you are making it more difficult for yourself by not presenting yourselves professionally. Forget about the magazines that don't seem committed to transformation (I have never worked for Caxton so I cannot comment on that personally). Find a magazine that does. Get an internship/entry-level position and learn the business. You cannot start at the top. If you acklowledge to yourself that you don't yet know much, because that comes with experience, and prove yourself to your colleagues that you are skilled - and willing to learn - you will have a successful career path.

why are you critiquing their spelling and punctuation on a FORUM? is this a friggin job application?

and again the assumption that a: they're competing with the best of the best and B: these applicants can't spell, or prodce shioddy applications because they're black?

when recruiting for a copy editor - i would look for anal attention to detail; when recruiting for a writer or journalist- i would look fot the ability to interview and string words together for competent and inspiring sotries.

but it seems eds are happy hiding behind the blacks can't spell or don't know grammar well enough excuse. that's why any publication worth its salt has excellent copy editors, because again, not even white writers and journalists keep a copy of strunk and white next to their beds.

and amazing how editors have the time to write long posts on these forums instead of replying to prospective candidates. I've had the pleasure of having a number of editors reply to me, in both the affirmative and negative.

Firstly, you are making assumptions. I never mentioned race. The quality of applications was shocking from all race groups, and most tertiary institutions.

Secondly, I am not an editor. At the time when I was hiring, I was head of a small department within a magazine that was looking for news writers. I did not have time to rewrite and double-check the facts of every news item that came across my desk, as well as copy edit it. The journalist has to take responsibility for what s/he outputs. A proper journalist writes well in whatever chosen language. I know a number of Afrikaans journalists who have learnt to write well in English. I know a number of English journalists who are terrible writers. I do not consider them journalists. A copy editor is there to provide a bridge between the writing and the design, to double-check facts (and please note I say double-check, not check, which should be the resonsibility of the journalists), and to catch the odd mistake or inconsistency that has crept into the work. Copy editors should not be expected to shoulder the burden of constantly redoing the work of a journalist who cannot write and should never have been employed in the first place. Yet that is what they are often expected to do.

i did assume you were an editor.

re race though - your comment unfortuantely seems to echo the other posters who are hiding behind the blacks don't spellcheck argument, and coming directly after the ludicous i'm checking your forum spelling bit - well...

re copy editors - i definitely agree; and again - bad writing/jurnalism isn't a problem confined to black writers or journalists - but it is assumed.

I see what you're saying. Sorry about that.

The actual issue, which was unfortunately emphasised by many of the respondents here, is the sense of entitlement (from all races) which is not backed up by ability, and my personal frustration that many universities are giving these kids degrees when they are not equipped to be proper journalists. If you're good (and that includes spelling and punctuation, as well as well-rounded reporting) you'll find work, because there will always be a demand for good journalists, as tough a market as it is, and increasingly there is a demand for black journalists, because who better to speak to that market (which is also the biggest market)? But it's imperative to be proactive. Start a blog or web site where you can post decent articles, building up a portfolio to demonstrate that you're got the goods (I've seen a few blogs like this and the writers/students are doing amazing work - they will be employed in no time, if they aren't already, because they have what it takes). If you can't find a full-time job find an internship position (*volunteer* if you must) and learn everything you can from it, even if it's how *not* to run a magazine. This is how you start to gain experience, which leads to skills and a decent reputation. This is what will put you ahead of the thousands of other people trying to get a job.

You *have* to start at the bottom. You *have* to prove yourself. It's the only way. But the responsibility lies with you to initiate and manage the process, your career, and your skillset. And, to my mind, it's how you represent yourself everywhere - whether you write a spec article, post on a forum, or run your own blog. Decent writers take pride in their work no matter what the format, because it's ingrained in who they are. If I post this comment now and then later see a spelling mistake, I will be mortified, because I am a professional. The fact that this is a forum post is irrelevant.

I see there was a typo in one of my responses. And I *am* mortified.

Typo

I have been working in the media industry for eight years. The truth about this industry that I love so much is that they do hire people of colour but chances of you making it to the to are zero. If you make it to the top you will be a puppet like one black editor I know. He has got not decision making powers, but he is the editor. How sad.

HAs anyone looked at the Naspers group??? There is no affrimative action policy implementation - it is a complete mockery. And when people of colour do join Naspers - they are made to feel like an outsider and u never get promoted!!!!!

Do you think it is even worth the trouble?

They're always looking for young black writers for You and Drum, and once you start there you can hopefully move around in the company. So apply!

Is a horrible company to work for, no matter what race you are! They don't appreciate talent - black or white - they just appoint the people they can pay the least. And then you're stuck there forever because they never promote anyone. In my 4 years at the company I never saw a single promotion, because if they promote you they have to pay you more, and they'll do anything to avoid that! Yet the big wigs take home massive salaries, and the junior writing staff earn less than truck drivers.

What an interesting debate.. which, by the way, we've lost because two writers on this forum choose to engage in a personal attack.

I'm Black, and I'm an Editor (and not for a 'Black' publication). So I guess you know that I'm not in agreement with the general consensus that Black writers are being marginalised/discriminated against. The reality for me when hiring a writer is to look at a few things:
1. Obvious writing ability (and by ability I don't mean the ability to write sentances, but the ability to coherently tell a story.)
2. Fit with the organisation (are you able to integrate into the mindset or values proposition of the organisation and publication. i.o.w. for a fashion mag, do you fit the profile of the mag, or can you at least identify with the target audience i.t.o need, appeal etc.)
3. And falling point 1 and 2 (which most often happens)-- are you at least able to effectively conduct research, analyse your research and produce winning copy. (i.e. Are you able to despite the areas of weakness, still wow me with brilliant story ideas for the intended publication and audience.)

This is just some of what we look at when considering a candidate. And more often than not, when I receive a CV with spelling errors, I will not even consider the candidate -- Black or white. And in my experience, the CV and accompanying application letter or motivation, is the one area where Black candidates fail to make the grade.

Now let's say you are successful, your CV's brilliant and motivation is interesting and geared towards your knowledge of the publication, more often than not, Black candidates are hopeless at the interview process. They are not eloquent enough, haven't done their research on the publication they've applied for, and generally have very poor knowlegde of the media/magazine industry. And more often than not, haven't ever even picked up the ed's title.

Now I know I'm generalising, but this is the reality we're faced with. And while it's not sufficient to just blame this on race or assign race as a causal link for this, in my humble opinion, I do believe that the disadvantage for Black writers lies with their poor educational background.
And this doesn't exclude graduates from UCT or Rhodes...

What makes a candidate appealing, Black or white, is their ability to prove that they READ, have independant thought, and then technical skills can always be taught or honed.
But very few Black aspiring journalists in this country read! And even fewer of the Black journalists that currently exist in the industry, are able to write for a broader audience... and most of the publications in this country appeal to a wide white audience.

My theory about those of you who are finding it difficult to source permanent work, is that you are perhaps applying to the wrong media houses or publications. Apply to the mags you read and have knowledge of, apply for free internships... make yourself a visible figure at the publication. Our last intern (Black) literally showed up at our doors, publications in hand, waited for hours to speak to someone in charge, and when he eventually met with one of us, he had some well-thought out suggestions about our editorial and D&L. Some of which we've implemented. He interns with us, and while he turned out not to be a very good writer, he is excelling at PR and marketing. And has found thathe is far more interested in that aspect of the media field than journalism.

Find your fit... if Cosmo is what you read, then apply some thought to what your contribution to Assoc Mags will be.

Don't just carry around that feeling of entitlement.

But very few Black aspiring journalists in this country read!


and i suppose you've met them all to make this ludicrous statement?

The editor obviously didn't mean that every black journalist doesn't read, she merely said that in her vast experience of interacting with young black journalists, she's picked up a few trends (and she is certainly not the only one).
You would do well to listen to her advice, instead of shooting her down, thinking a young graduate knows better. It's that attitude that makes employers not want to give you a job, and I can guarantee you that the person on this forum who learns from her valuable comment, is the one who will get a job with their next interview.

with close on 10 years' experience, and despite a cv that lists the mail & guardian (as a journalist and sub editor!) amongst others, was very recently told that i should hold on a bit until I could write the article on spices. guess what race I am. so pack up the young graduate assumption. despite not having a degree in journalism, i have had to mentor young white graduates. lucky them. i don't see young black grads getting the same babysitting until their wings are strong enough to fly.

even if one black writer reads - it negates the oh black writers don't read stereotype. the irresponsibilty and sheer lack of shame this editor has to say such a thing and then chalk it up to "experience" is a hallmark of racism. and it comes in all shapes and sizes, not the least of which is intraracial. coconuts isn't a term used by white people for black people. he might as well be saying "well, seeing as I've never met a black journo who reads, I'll base my assumption on this" that he's black and reads flies in the face of his own statement.

my experience has shown me that you had better be an "ok" darkie (model C or very Westernised by white standards) to be accepted. you also have to be sterling; not just mediocre or acceptable like so many other employed white journalists. don't be an angry black woman because you're a radical and will rock the boat, don't expect to be taken seriously and expect to work twice as hard. i've had wonderful experiences at magazines and simply appalling ones. the worst part is realising that as long as magazines don't admit the problem, the industry will continue to be one that is representative of a small portion of the country's inhabitants. that's a tragedy, as a wider industry means more people reading, and wanting to read, and better salaries, and a chance for SA magazines to not just ape their US and UK counterparts.

the people on this forum who give advice on pitching ideas to eds are right; but you only know that your pitches are good if the ed replies. you can't pitch a story to an HR person. the ed is busy is not a valuable response if the advice is to pitch stories to eds?

Everyone keeps bringing Khanyi up - and not to diminish her accomplishments, the woman has an MBA from Harvard; she's had international management experience. One wonders how may white publishers in this country have that kind of CV?

the only way the indutry will change is to acknowledge the racism; to have the coonversations and actually make the effort to really step out of the little box and see that talent can be nurtured.

we;re not the only country battling with this either; the UK and the US have their own media diversity issues; the difference- the're dealing with minorities who have so much less of a claim thatn the majority of south africans, who are black and deserve having their stories told.

With all due respect, you are talking crap. That's the official party line and you know it. I'm neither black nor white, have been in the media industry for 8 years, having worked abroad, worked in PR, worked in newspapers and now magazines and struggle to get promoted to a senior level. Despite doing the work very well if the increasing workload is a yardstick.

Yet, when I read about people moving within the industry, it's white females. And here's the kicker. They're white females who the white female editors are friends with / acquaintances of / were in grade school with. It's a white girl's club and a lot of people are ignorant to this. The few black chicks that are around are Model C girls who look and sound white enough. Go to any media launch especially in CT and you'll see what I'm talking about, it's an insular world and they don't take kindly to interlopers no matter how good you are.

and you're saying whites are?

or are you saying that black writers can't write for the white audience because their experiences are different?

the corollary being that white writers shouldn't be expected to write for black audiences?

but the evidence that this isn't the case is out there.

as much as many articles need an "insider's" view, many simply need a competent journalist.

and frankly, the world's book industry makes a pretty penny off white readers buying books on black experiences. and the other way around.

either way, this argument simply doens't hold water, and sounds like just another excuse.

Lebo, sounds like you are far too young to that cynical. I think if you looked closely/did some in-depth research you might find that the magazines out there are targeted very accurately at their niche markets. Lets take Bona, Drum, Kick off Jet Club Magazine, etc. you'll find that they are predominantly 'black' run and read. True Love, by the way also has a new editor - Tumelo Mushi.

Added to the above, a person entering the publishing/ marketing/design/media field may be required to start at 'the bottom', an apprentice so to say. Learn the ropes, earn respect for a job well done, even if it means checking copy or making tea - yep, that's how some of us started, even in the Apartheid days. It was difficult to get into the job market back then. We earned tiny salaries and it was a privilege just to be able to work under someone we could learn from.

Come down off your high horse, wipe your nose and get on with it. Quit whining and get out there and persevere. If you have what it takes, you should have no problem finding a job in your chosen field.

Regards,

Grey Man

TYPICAL OF A WHITE EDITOR TO JUST SKIM THROUGH WHILE READING.ESPECIALLY IF A BLACK PERSON IS WRITING.IF YOU TOOK THE TIME, AND GOD KNOWS HOW "BUSY" THESE WHITE EDITORS ARE ,WHAT WITH CURING AIDS AND HELPING RELIEF VICTIMS IN DARFUR-YOU WOULD NOTICE THAT IN LEBOS OPENING COMMENT SHE DOES POINT OUT THAT THE MEDIA INDUSTRY DOES NOT OWE HER ANYTHING..SHE IS MERELY POINTING OUT WHAT IS CONSIDERED HUSH HUSH IN THE MEDIA INDUSTRY.
LAST WEEKS FORUM WAS THE IMPETUS FOR HER COMMENT, AS MANY WHITE...YES ..WHITE ...WRITERS ON MAGAZINES STEPPED FORWARD TO THE REAL GOING ON AT MAGAZINES AND THEIR RECRUITMENT POLICIES.WHITE WRITERS ON GQ, 3 CAXTON PUBLICATIONS, 2 ASSOCIATED MEDIA PUBLICATIONS ALL STEPPED FORWARD AND REVEALED WHAT REALLY GOES ON.IF ANY OF YOU HAVE THE TIME READ LAST WEEKS FORUM.

this isn't a bottom of the pile job; "copy checkers" have a HUGE responsibility, and fresh out of school grads simply don't have the experience to do this. please don't offer these kids false hopes and wrong information. subs are often the last line of defence against lawsuits. i don't see a 22-year-old being in any position to tackle this kind of responsibility.

I have recently graduated, what advice do any of you have on the procedure when applying for volunteer work or an intership.
Is there a correct way?
I'd just really like some hands on experience at a magazine here in Joburg.

Firstly, choose the magazines you know, read and love, and read them front to back, until you know them inside out. Think of what you would like to read in the mag. Think of what you would change or improve. Don't just think of what you and your friends like, think of the broader target market.

Then, contact the magazines and ask them what internship opportunities they have. Speak to someone in HR or the personnel management, or check their websites for information. Don't try and contact the editor directly, it's not her job.

Once you have the application information, read and re-read your application, and then read it again to make sure it is perfect.

If you don't come right at your favourite mags (and keep in mind that magazines usually only take one or maybe 2 interns at a time), move on to other publications. You can also try newspapers, community publications, or websites. Anything to get experience and build a portfolio. There are hundreds of opportunities, don't just go for the glossy women's mags. Just keep trying, it's rare to be immediately successful in such a competitive industry.

If you don't find an internship, or while you're still looking, you can ask a magazine if you can do job shadowing for a day or 2. What this means is that you follow the person (the fashion ed, for instance) for a day and see what they do, and help them carry stuff or look for things or make them tea. This is a brilliant way of meeting people and getting an idea of how things work. Most mags won't mind someone hanging around for a day, so don't be afraid to ask!

Once you're in, Work. Your. Ass. Off. Do anything. Learn. Work in every department. Make friends with everyone - they're your contacts for the rest of your career. Don't be lazy. Don't be arrogant. Have fun. Have ideas. Make tea. If you're passionate, you'll do what it takes and you'll be successful. Good luck!

thank you for that. i will take your advice.

WOW, I'VE NEVER FELT THE NEED TO COMMENT BEFORE, BUT I AGREE 100% WITH WHAT'S BEING SAID HERE! BEING A NON WHITE (MALE OR FEMALE) IN THE MAGAZINE INDUSTRY IS HARD! ALWAYS HAVING TO PROVE YOURSELF 100 X MORE THAN YOUR WHITE COUNTERPARTS (THEY'RE ALWAYS GETTING THE PROMOTIONS A WHOLE LOT EASIER THAN THE REST OF US). THE POINTS RAISED ARE VALID, JUST BECAUSE ITS A LITTLE HARDER FINDING SKILLED BLACK OR COLOURED EMPLOYEES (AND TRAINING THEM), DOESN'T MEAN THERE ARE NONE! AND THE ONES THEY'VE HIRED ARE JUST SEEN AS TOKENS! SO WHAT CAN I SAY? WILL THINGS ALWAYS BE THIS WAY? I WISH THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR WOULD BE MORE STRINGENT WITH PUBLISHING COMPANIES, SO OTHERS TOO WILL GET THE OPPORTUNITIES THEY SO RIGHTLY DESERVE!

I am a recent black graduate with three years experience in the media industry as a journalist. I have applied and been interviewed at magazines such as Glamour, Cosmopolitan, YOU,Real Simple and some other New Media publications. I never get the job. When I check the editorial contacts in the magazine all I can see are white names which lead me to believe that the only people getting employed by these mags are white journos. So what you're saying is too true.

Have you ever asked the magazines you interviewed for why they didn't appoint you? Did you ever think that maybe you just weren't what they were looking for, or that they found a better candidate? I've interviewed for mags as well (I'm white) and guess what, I was rejected because I wasn't a right fit for the mag. I asked for feedback and I got it, and because of that I'm now freelancing for the magazines. I didn't just sit back and go 'oh, it must be because of my race; my skills set and experience have nothing to do with their decision, they're just racists.' Grow up, then people might start taking you seriously.

There seems to be this mindset among black people, especially from the one's on this forum, that the world owes them something just because they are black. Black people are the only people who play the victim role continuously. Stop playing the race card and using it as an excuse for you not being able to get a job. NOBODY........I REPEAT NOBODY is going to shed a tear and feel sorry for you just because you can't get a job.

Have you ever taken into consideration that you might not be good enough and do not meet the criteria? Its not your race that is the problem, its that you just might not meet the standard required. This, "will somebody please help me, everybody hates me because im black" attitude needs to come to an end. Its pathetic! Stop blaming others for you not being able to find employment. You won't get any sympathy from anybody, and with an attitude like that you won't get anywhere in life.

I have the experience and I also freelance for a number of magazines. So, I reckon I am good enough. The problem is that permanent employment seems difficult to land. It's a tough industry. Period.

Exactly, its a tough industry & you seem to have the correct mindset. Im not doubting your ability or your intelligence because you seem to have what it takes. Now if only most other black people could understand that and have the right type of mindset.

WELL MAYBE THEN IT'S BLOODY TIME PEOPLE STARTED SHEDDING A TEAR! HOW ABOUT STARTING "THE NAME AND SHAME HALL OF FAME" FOR ALL THOSE OF YOU WHO'VE EVER FALLEN VICTIM TO THIS HIDEOUS CULTURE!

Im not even surprised by your reply because just like every other black person who can't find employment you blame other people and expect sympathy. The race card is completely played out so stop moaning.

Blacks run this damn country and yet they still have the nerve to still want to play the victim when things don't go their way. Its ridiculous.

and something tells me you'd prefer it otherwise?
This post is a perfect example of the racism that is pervasive and yet the denial is unbelievable.

it's as if every single white person vehemently opposed apartheid and it was just the strijdoms and verwoeds who thretened an entire country of people without their tacit approval of the situation. you can't find a single white south african who voted for the nats and every one of them seems to have some sort of my private battle against apartheid story

if this were truly the case, why'd we need the armed struggle, and why are blacks then so aggrieved, and poor?

racism comes in many forms; it doesn't have to be of the Reitz sort; it can be practiced behind smiles and email addresses through lies and deceit. the white posters on this forum seem to forget that racism can' be wiped out with an election; and that applying for a job doesn't have the same rules for blacks as it does for whites.

think about what it's like being a woman, and how insidious misigyny and chauvinisms are; despite most first world countries looking like havens for women, the ugly truth is that a "glass ceiling" exists.

why should it be any different for blacks? and quite frankly, after so many years of soul and society destroying apartheid, a little entitlement going the other way is to be expected. Blacks aren't saints no matter how much whites think they should turn the other cheek.

so give us a little slack to "play the race card" as you so dismissivley put it; you just did. what makes it ok for you and not for us?

What makes you think Im white? Is it because I say that that black people play the race card over and over and over when things don't go their way? If thats your reasoning then you are just grasping at straws. What Im saying is completely valid.

Black people do run this country! Take a look at the government and which race has a firm grasp on it. Even with this, when a black person can's get a job, the excuse is because of what has happened in the past and because they black and crap like that. That's rubbish.

You can make as many excuses as you want and blame as many people as you want but at the end of the day it comes down to your overall ability.

Coloured people also went through apartheid and also find it difficult to get jobs but you never hear coloureds making excuses like you are making. You say that Im a racist but everything you say is more racist than what Im apparently saying.

Let me illustrate my point as a formula:
TALENT & ABILITY = JOB OPPORTUNITIES = EMPLOYMENT
Understand now?

Coloured people also went through apartheid and also find it difficult to get jobs but you never hear coloureds making excuses like you are making.

no you're right. never. appaenly coloureds are saints? maybe Indians are too? or are you just wishing for the days of the piecemeal handouts the white govt gave you and denying the sheer scale of the repression blacks suffered - to the point of still not being able to fully participate in the economy. does the fact that a democratically elected black govt in a country with a majority black population strike you as funny business?

i don't see hawkers moaning about not having jobs - they make a living "freelance", but the prevailing trend on this forum is that ALL black people expect everyhting on a platter and call racism everytime they don't get something. and yet the posters on this forum have more than once mentioned that they don't expect handouts - but would like to know why, depsite their obvious eloquence, they aren't getting the jobs as writers. their observaions are backed up by white and oher balck magazine staff who each have stories about the racism in the industry.

my apologies for assuming you were white; i can't imagine the vicious hatred your post shows coming from someone who was a victim of apartheid. do you perhaps feel that as a coloured you're being overlooked for black candidates, and feel you shouldn't be? despite the trend to emply indian and coloured candidates over black african candidates?

in a perfect world talent would = jobs - in post apartheid SA, where racism is endemic, you must be delusional to believe this. i'd hope to never have to be a black prospective employee applying for a job you're interviewing for.

Im not making excuses you idiot! Read properly and you will see that what Im saying has to do with the excuses and blame game that black people love making when they don't get what they want. You are complaining about jobs not going your way and goodness knows what else, whereas I am merely stating how sad the mindset is of alot of black people, and this forum illustrates my point perfectly.

As for finding having a black government funny, when its a government that is running this country into the ground I don't find it funny........I find it hilarious! Welcome to the next Zimbabwe South Africa!

You think that what I said makes me sound white but if you think that just because Im coloured I should be sympathetic towards you and the crap that you are saying, then you are horribly mistaken.

Oh and believe me you wouldn't have to waste your time coming in for an interview with me because its quite clear that you are clueless and lack something as simple as common sense. Good luck with that.

so you have missed the point i've made.

There is no point in you continuing when you are fighting a losing battle but I applaud you for your valiant effort to try and make sense of what you were saying. The truth did prevail in the end.....that being that I was right.

Thank you for the entertainment.

if you're going to resort to name-calling

u should try to make your points without resorting to blatant generalisations and venting your obvious anger and personal issues. We are a country in which everyone has their own race issues so its pointless trying to argue that one race is more or less guilty of 'racism' or playing the 'race' card.

I agree that the media and design industries are for some reason far behind, for eg. finance and engineering, wrt equity, maybe because there's less money in it and so those in control are trying harder to protect their own jobs.. seems as if there's an 'old girls club' mentality and a general trend for the industry to be rather 'snooty'.

Nobody cares what you have to say.

it seems like whites think like they have a God-given right to control the black masses, the reason they own these industries is because of apartheid and they have a nerve to tell us that black is not good. they should be grateful that blacks protected their private properties and not seize them as in many African states.. every white is a racist unless proven otherwise.. im lucky to work for a black owned media company..

If only are white people are getting the jobs then what does that say about criteria? I wonder what these people could have that we don't? Maybe it's whiteness?

Once again the victim card is played. Spare me the dramatics.

I suppose once you done blaming white people, you will start blaming coloured people. Anything to avoid not having to face the possibilty of realizing that its not the company, its you.

Idiot, I am coloured. Its not the blame game, its the truth. You wouldn't know since you probably have not experienced it.

you most probably look black, so you think you have the right to blame other people for your inabilities and flaws.

I do not nearby look black. That is so funny. I wonder how intelligent you must be to think that you can judge which colour I am on the basis of my comment. WTF???

Its not a wonder you complaining and that you probably struggle to get jobs because using abbreviations that are linked to vulgar words(everybody knows what WTF means), I can understand why the job offers are not exactly rolling in for you.

Everyone knows how often "vulgar" words get thrown around in the newsroom. Have you worked in a newsroon or what??? By the way, I have a job and am doing very well here and the money is probably more than most mag journos get paid. The only reason for a change is because I am passionate about feature writing and want a change, but thats beside the point. Anyway, no need to get so hot under the collar, this is just a debate. Thanks for your input but I don't think I'll use it although it probably opened my eyes a bit...

Lol. No problem, Im glad I could open your eyes a bit and share my thoughts with you. I was out of the office for most of the day yesterday so unfortunately I could not respond to your reply. You probably missed me hey?

Hey just wanted to let you know that I got a job at a very popular mag. One of those that have been mentioned several times on this forum. This forum actually helped and made me more determined to get a foot in the door. Im not getting paid, but its a start : )

I don't believe in working for the white companies.. i encourage all blacks to create their own media companies with the help that our govt. it will come a time whereby the white media will be marginalised and a black owned promoted.. right now we cant do anything to them because they control the industry.. the time will come and blacks will truly take back their own country.

UP UNTIL FEBRUARY THIS YEAR I WAS AN EMPLOYEE AT CAXTON. I AM WHITE. AND LET ME TELL YOU, WHAT THE BLACK JOURNO'S ARE SAYING IS NOT OFF THE MARK. EVEN IF THEY SUIT THE MAGAZINE, EVEN WITH BRILLIANT CV'S AND COVERING LETTERS, AND OUTSTANDING INTERVIEWS, WHERE A WHITE EDITOR CAN HELP IT-SHE WON'T HIRE THEM. I HAVE BEEN WITNESS TO THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. THEY WOULD RATHER HIRE AN OK-ISH WHITE GRADUATE/WRITER THAN HIRE A PERSON OF COLOUR.I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THE OTHER MEDIA COMPANIES, BUT I HAVE WORKED AT CAXTON FOR OVER FIVE YEARS AND I CAN TELL YOU, THE MORE THINGS MIGHT CHANGE IN OTHER INDUSTRIES, THE MORE THEY STAY THE SAME AT CAXTON.

Thank you :)

Just because one company is full of crap doesn't mean that every other company is. It still doesn't change the fact that black people always want to be the victim and play the race card.

I am not a moaner or a whiner, but I find the reference to Marie Claire in this post insulting to Zodwa Khumalo (JHB bureau chief), Ingrid Pearce (Fashion Co-ordinator), Leila Petersen (Junior Fashion Editor), Wardia Essop (Fashion assistant), Fatima Rinquest-Gierdien (PA & Events co-ordinator) and Merise Isaacs (promotions co-ordinator) - all of whom will have been considered disadvantaged in the old apartheid days.


I've also been witness to a number of black staff headhunted from Marie Claire since its move from Caxton - namely Lerato Tshabalala, Lebogang Malatse and Mpumi Ntintili-Sinxoto to name a few.


The fact is that magazine staff are a rare breed of passionate individuals with specialised skills and therefore, black or white, are not always easy to find. I know, for instance, that Marie Claire is currently looking for a senior features editor and has been unable to fill the position - with a black or white candidate. Perhaps interested parties should consider doing a little homework and sending their CVs to the editor.

Interesting that Marie Claire is mentioned, in fact let me pick on Associated Magazines as a whole. Let's say a journalist is attempting to freelance. You submit a million ideas, and I find it hard to believe that not one idea is viable, especially when I see it written the next month bylined by one of their regular freelancers.

I work for a magazine, I understand that having a stable of regular freelancers who get the job done is essential, however these magazines are just so insular, they refuse to throw you a bone, you can't get a foot in the door at all. Interestingly the position of MC features editor has been mentioned. Pls point out to me where it has been advertised? I knew it was advertised internally at Assoc Mags, I haven't seen it on biz community, marketingweb etc.

The black people you mention that circulate in magazines brings me again to my point: they're few and far between.

Just FYI, if you pitch an idea for a mag and don't get taken up on it, only to see your story in the next month's issue, the reason they didn't take your idea is because they already wrote the same story 3 months ago. That's how long monthly mags work in advance.

Yes, sorry I should have said that. I am aware of long lead times. I was making a general point that pitched ideas do often turn up as written by others after a features ed or assistant ed vetoes mine as not workable enough, or some other arb excuse that has nothing to do with the fact that it's already in the magazine.

That they've already written an article similar to the one that the writer has pitched.

The editor that I send my article Idea to said absolutely nothing! And guess what, she used exactly the very same contacts and format that I proposed.

I pitched an Article Idea to Real Magazine. It was rejected. A month or so later, I saw my idea on the cover of the magazine - the story was written by a black writer - I'm coloured.

My comment won't be about race much but about the salaries paid to these people of color that work for the white eds and organization; they are poorly paid and do all the work most of the time for their white counter parts. Zodwa khumalo is Zanele Khumalo's sister whom was employed by the Oprah magazine that is a fact. Re race card, one of the most brilliant deputy editors was refused a job as the editor in Oprah mag because she was colored. Now really if we think the race does not matter anymore we are somehow fooling ourselves.

the black person most of the time reports to the white in most cases no matter how qualified they maybe.

Remember there are also companies whom are racist towards the white.

You are missing the point. We are saying that the editors discriminate soley on appearences, BEFORE even giving writers of colour a chance to show their literary talent. If a journalist can't write, whether they may be black, white or orange, then yes, they shouldnt be hired, who wants to read badly written garbage.
But the point of this forum is to shed light on an ugly truth that is very prevalent in the magazine industry. Editors assume that if they hire someone called DUDU, she will automatically add "EISH" to every sentence. Or if they hire someone called FATIMA, she'll write "and all, and all". They don't take a chance to look beyond your name, because they have preconcieved ideas of what you are capable of as a person of colour.
I applied for a job at a Caxton, the editor of the magazine replied, "WHAT KIND OF A NAME IS MARIAM? Are you black or indian. Someone named LIZEL got the job.If she cared to open the attachment with my CV she would have seen that I studied at YALE, I did my intership at the Washington Post.And I have published more than 2 novels.

The magazine industry in SA is an old boys (or should that be old girls) club. Freelance work are given to buddies who already hold permanent positions at other magazines. Some editors even go as far as giving fictitious "black names" to these articles written by their buddies. I've seen it happen.

I totally have to agree with this...

I am involved with the internship programme on one of the magazines mentioned in this forum and we are always looking for young students/ graduates who are articulate, passionate about magazines and willing to work hard and learn as much as possible. We respond to every applicant and advise whether or not we can accommodate them. On more than one occasion we have had prospective people turn down an internship because we don’t offer a salary and we’ve had one who spent two days with us and never returned (maybe something to do with the amount of work involved and the reality that it’s nothing like it is in The Devil Wears Prada). The number of emails we receive with spelling mistakes would shock any prospective employer. My advice is to spell check your CV and covering letter, be prepared to spend time learning and absorbing as much as possible with no salary expectation and be prepared to start at the bottom and work your way up. The interns we’ve had who have worked hard (most work two jobs) and been passionate about publishing have since gone on to find permanent jobs within the industry.

Hi who do you contact for an internship? One of the writers or the editor? Who exactly is in charge? I'd do an internship, for no money, just to get the experience-its so vital in this industry, but just getting in is a bit of a struggle.

Contact the HR department or the Editor/ general enquiries mail address in the mag. Every magazine seems to work differently so there are different people on each mag who deal with intern requests. If they offer internships the right person will get your mail.

Read the post entitled Applying for an internship.

Read the post entitled Applying for an internship.

so any black person who questions the status quo is a darkie who cries racism; and all white editors are racists.

how about the middle ground; that there are magazines and companies that do discriminate, and that there are black candidates who expect too much. maybe an honest appraisal of the racism in the industry, and a true sense of what the industry demands from its employees is in order - from companies and tertiary institutions.

and then see how it goes?

Whether or not the Editor gives preference to the 'buddy' is so not the point!

The level of pressure to produce the greatest issue (every month) means that you'd rathergive work to people you know will produce. It's a shame that this means new writers don't get a foot in. But that's the nature of every industry.

So stop whining and get on with it!

How did the 'few' (as you put it) Black journo's make it?

Remember Cynthia Vongai (Black Elle Ed)? There are so many other examples of Black editors and writers doing well at mainstreem media houses... do your research before you comment on the racist industry. Oh, before you assume -- I am black.

cynthia vongai got her ass booted for plagiarism

but interesting you bring her up - she's nowhere now.

but darrel bristow-bovey - also a plagiarist - makes a soft living as a scriptwriter...

just a thought...use it don't use it...

the networking game is just another name for the old girls club - if industry is being called upon to kill the old boys culture,which effectively keeps blacks out of the boardroom, i don't see why magazines should be exempt.

no one is saying the the industry is a difficult one - there aren't any easy industries put there; but glass celings and brick walls need to be addressed. they definitely exist.

"Some things will neva change"

I 've once posted a forum on remuneration between White and Blacks but it's still not posted....
Even with your Editors, they will do the very same work, with more or less the same working experience and sometimes you'll find Blacks even more experienced than the Whites but will still get under-paid as compared to Whites.

From Call Centre, Administration, Consultation, Executive up the ladder. There is a big difference between Black and White Remuneration even if still doing the same thing. Silly enough, a Black can be a Sales Executive but will earn the same salary as the White Capturer!!! How on earth is that happening.....

I dearly love all people. Black, White, whatever but the salary advice..Uhmmhmm is not on.

I'm not sure where you get your info from, but in general black employees earn way more than their white peers, especially in the finance sector, or other practical industries like engineering etc etc.
No one in the media earns a good salary, get used to it!